Curse

Perfected Shadow · Sep 09, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

They need to be nerfed even more.

I've got it all planned out, see?

1) Nerf SF
2) Nerf ER
3) Fix Dervishes
4) Fix Ritualists - DONE
5) Fix pets - DONE

Imo it's not popular enough to warrant nerfing and it will never be popular enough. It's not exactly stepping on the monk's role because groups looking for a healer will always choose monks over ER eles, or rits for that matter.

Does it deserve to be mentioned in the same page as Shadow Form, which single-handedly excludes nearly every class in various areas? Seriously WHEN have you seen ER eles causing monks to get kicked out? In reality, the exact RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing opposite usually occurs when you ping an ER bar. YOU get kicked. Meh the irony.

reaper with no name · Sep 09, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Our opinions on that differ.

In my view, the fact that ER healers can outheal and outprot monks at all is reason enough to nerf them, regardless of how common they are. The fact that this build even exists defeats the purpose of having monks do healing or prot.

Sure, you can have a monk do those things, but then again, you could also put mending on your bar. Either way, you'll probably be able to manage, because it's PvE. It doesn't mean that either charcter is the best use of a party slot, though. The reasoning is the same: there's no point in using mending because it is suboptimal. There is also no reason (within the game mechanics) to use a monk for healing or protting in PvE, because it's suboptimal.

Hence, overpowered things should be nerfed simply because they're overpowered. Or at least that's my viewpoint.

Owik Gall · Sep 09, 2009, 11:56 PM // 23:56

I never saw any good use from ER healers. Can somebody please enlighten me? Maybe show me the correct build and stuff because I don't see it working all that well over monks.

Perfected Shadow · Sep 10, 2009, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

I never saw any good use from ER healers. Can somebody please enlighten me? Maybe show me the correct build and stuff because I don't see it working all that well over monks.

If there are posts like this on guru, imagine the ignorance in-game. Kinda supports my point.

Sorry Owik, read Ether Renewal's description carefully, then look at monk protection skills and Infuse Health.

Anyway reaper (I assume you have a monk), if I were you I'd be happy that on the rare occasion you get an ER ele you'll never be told you're suboptimal /kick. Instead you'll have a much easier time monking and get comments like "VERY NICE HEALING REAPER".

kanuks · Sep 10, 2009, 01:20 AM // 01:20

I bet that most peoples saying that ER should be nerfed are using SF on a regular basis.

maxxfury · Sep 10, 2009, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

I never saw any good use from ER healers. Can somebody please enlighten me? Maybe show me the correct build and stuff because I don't see it working all that well over monks.

[Infuse Health][Protective Spirit][Spirit Bond][Life Attunement][glyph Of Swiftness][Ether renewal][Aura of restoration] with [shield Guardian] or [Great Dwarf Weapon]

TLDR thread: cast infuse, and your health fill right up again! ps + sb are cast and give you energy and health back..

Its cake! spam heavy prots like they are goin out of fashion were ever needed and mash infuse to redbar...and its pretty much THAT easy....oh...keep enchants up..and roll face on keyboard.

**lol at the pvx bars..**

Jeydra · Sep 10, 2009, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

I never saw any good use from ER healers. Can somebody please enlighten me? Maybe show me the correct build and stuff because I don't see it working all that well over monks.

Look on the first page, Zodiac Meteor's post - there's a video there. In my opinion it's not the ideal build, but it illustrates the concept. With Ether Renewal you get to spam Infuse / Prot Spirit / Spirit Bond, which is the main idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

In my view, the fact that ER healers can outheal and outprot monks at all is reason enough to nerf them, regardless of how common they are. The fact that this build even exists defeats the purpose of having monks do healing or prot.

Sure, you can have a monk do those things, but then again, you could also put mending on your bar. Either way, you'll probably be able to manage, because it's PvE. It doesn't mean that either charcter is the best use of a party slot, though. The reasoning is the same: there's no point in using mending because it is suboptimal. There is also no reason (within the game mechanics) to use a monk for healing or protting in PvE, because it's suboptimal.

Monks aren't useless, and ER Elementalists do not entirely outheal and outprot Monks. I've given reasons why before, I'll repeat them here:

1. ER Elementalists don't have party heals;
2. ER Elementalists don't have hex / condition removal - they can bring it, but if they do they cramp and already cramped bar even more;
3. ER Elementalists do not have access to certain prots, e.g. Seed of Life / Aegis / Shield of Absorption;
4. ER Elementalists risk getting interrupted and it getting removed - can be macromanaged against, but still a weakness.

Monks aren't useless, they just have to play to their strengths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenosmortis

Running two ER Eles basically means you can easily and relatively safely keep up 8 copies of Prot Bond, mabye with some Heal Party spam.

But I think if you have 1 ER Eles and 1 Monk; then (depending on the area) the monk should focus a little more in clean up - something the ele cannot do. Two obvious elite choices are Restore Condition and Peace and Harmony. Unfortunatly, RC is conditions only and cannot self-target and PnH is on too long a recharge to keep everybody clean in areas when you need it.
That monk should also bring some stuff ER Eles don't - Aegis, perhaps Extinguish, etc.

It's a bit hard to imagine Heal Party if you're using Protective Bond (2s cast when you could be losing massive energy per second). Breath of the Great Dwarf yes, but Heal Party ... difficult. Maintaining Protective Bond also necessarily means you don't get Life Attunement (Vital Blessing is not only unnecessary with Prot Bond, it is counterproductive). You could jump through hoops and such to fit everything you need onto your bar, but you'd have to give up on other nice stuff like Protective Spirit if Protective Bond ever gets stripped, GDW, and you completely neglect hex / condition removal.

It works, just might not be ideal. Agree with what you write about Monk + ER Ele, except that possibly HB would be a great elite for the Monk because pumping party heals is something the Elementalist can't do well and you'd shore it up.

Owik Gall · Sep 10, 2009, 04:07 AM // 04:07

K, I think I get it. Thanks guys. It's too bad it seems that only human players can effectively use it than heroes, though. If so, however, we would have seen a big nerf of this months ago. XD

EDIT:
Woops! Found out heroes CAN use it. Nerf cannon coming up! x(

Improvavel · Sep 10, 2009, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

Woops! Found out heroes CAN use it. Nerf cannon coming up! x(

Not nearly as well.

The biggest strength on the ER infuser is infuse health and heroes just aren't solid at it.

Xenomortis · Sep 10, 2009, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The biggest strength on the ER infuser is infuse health and heroes just aren't solid at it.

You know, I don't know about that. Spamming Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond on all 8 party members at will is I think more useful than the big redbar up.

Though yes, Infuse isn't too good on Vekk. He seldom casts it and I've often been hanging on at around 30% health, waiting for him to cast it. I hate having to micro a hero to use a heal.
I've considered something like Heal Other (which is fairly good at 10 Healing), but it doesn't have the big healing capacity of Infuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's a bit hard to imagine Heal Party if you're using Protective Bond (2s cast when you could be losing massive energy per second). Breath of the Great Dwarf yes, but Heal Party ... difficult. Maintaining Protective Bond also necessarily means you don't get Life Attunement...

Sorry, I assumed Mindbender on the Ele with Heal Party (this was for the 2 ER Eles). Otherwise, the 2 sec cast time hurts when you're trying to use Heal Party and are losing energy from maintaining 4 Prot Bonds.
The downside on Mindbender is that it isn't maintainable without GoS.

I agree though, the value of this is questionable.

reaper with no name · Sep 10, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Look on the first page, Zodiac Meteor's post - there's a video there. In my opinion it's not the ideal build, but it illustrates the concept. With Ether Renewal you get to spam Infuse / Prot Spirit / Spirit Bond, which is the main idea.

Monks aren't useless, and ER Elementalists do not entirely outheal and outprot Monks. I've given reasons why before, I'll repeat them here:

1. ER Elementalists don't have party heals;
2. ER Elementalists don't have hex / condition removal - they can bring it, but if they do they cramp and already cramped bar even more;
3. ER Elementalists do not have access to certain prots, e.g. Seed of Life / Aegis / Shield of Absorption;
4. ER Elementalists risk getting interrupted and it getting removed - can be macromanaged against, but still a weakness.

Monks aren't useless, they just have to play to their strengths.

It's a bit hard to imagine Heal Party if you're using Protective Bond (2s cast when you could be losing massive energy per second). Breath of the Great Dwarf yes, but Heal Party ... difficult. Maintaining Protective Bond also necessarily means you don't get Life Attunement (Vital Blessing is not only unnecessary with Prot Bond, it is counterproductive). You could jump through hoops and such to fit everything you need onto your bar, but you'd have to give up on other nice stuff like Protective Spirit if Protective Bond ever gets stripped, GDW, and you completely neglect hex / condition removal.

It works, just might not be ideal. Agree with what you write about Monk + ER Ele, except that possibly HB would be a great elite for the Monk because pumping party heals is something the Elementalist can't do well and you'd shore it up.

I wasn't trying to say that monks are useless (if I believed that, then I'd be as vocal about ER as I am about SF and dervishes), merely that they are inferior healers and protters. They are better smiters and condition/hex removers (like you said, ER eles can't fit those on their bars due to requiring all those enchantments).

I don't get what you're saying about prots like aegis or party heals, though. Why can't ER eles use those? I thought heal party was common on ER bars. And those prots you mentioned aren't elite, so why wouldn't an ER ele be able to use them?

Xenomortis · Sep 10, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I don't get what you're saying about prots like aegis or party heals, though. Why can't ER eles use those? I thought heal party was common on ER bars. And those prots you mentioned aren't elite, so why wouldn't an ER ele be able to use them?

Heal Party and Aegis really don't fit on ER. Both have two second cast times and you want to be casting frequently, Aegis is on a long recharge and your bar is really cramped.
Your essentials are GoS, ER, Aura, Infuse and Prot Spirit. Spirit Bond is bloody useful to have and Life Attunement boosts your heals and the healing from ER and Aura (I think). If you're maintaining 8 enchantments, you can't really afford a 2 second casting spell and you'll need something spammy to hit between Infuses.

Don't judge ER bars based on what's on PvX wiki. Someone seriously needs to fix that.

madriel222 · Sep 10, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Think he was getting at the notion that the ER ele needs to be constantly spamming stuff to keep energy up (provided he's maintaining somekind of enchant, as most bars I've seen do), and SoA+Aegis aren't "spammy" enough on an already tight bar. Not saying you can't throw those on an ER though...

thejynxed · Sep 11, 2009, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Why bother? Take an Er Infuser + Life Sheath or ZB Monk Hybrid (Mo/Me Healer/Prot bar - works awesomesauce on heroes, as long as you remember Leech Signet or Power Drain to abuse hero AI concerning interrupts). There you've got your massive heals/prots and your massive hex/condi removal. Then the entire rest of your team can be optional as to the makeup.

Personally, I wish I had an ER Infuser helping me vanquish. It'd probably be alot faster and safer than Discordway/Sabway. Not to mention more reliable in areas like Lornar's Pass (I'm looking at you - group of 30 Summit Dwarves).

Chthon · Sep 11, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You know, I don't know about that. Spamming Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond on all 8 party members at will is I think more useful than the big redbar up.

Though yes, Infuse isn't too good on Vekk. He seldom casts it and I've often been hanging on at around 30% health, waiting for him to cast it. I hate having to micro a hero to use a heal.
I've considered something like Heal Other (which is fairly good at 10 Healing), but it doesn't have the big healing capacity of Infuse..

Try DKiss. The hero will cast it even when it won't spam Infuse, and a very good synergy with the PS and SB the hero will spam.

kanuks · Sep 11, 2009, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

K, I think I get it. Thanks guys. It's too bad it seems that only human players can effectively use it than heroes, though. If so, however, we would have seen a big nerf of this months ago. XD

EDIT:
Woops! Found out heroes CAN use it. Nerf cannon coming up! x(

They can, but they doesnt use infuse. They can spam PS, SB and the other spell that cost 10 and gives 75% block pct and when it blocks, gives like 60 health to party members in the area. They're pretty effective but nowhere like a human player abusing ER.

Xenomortis · Sep 11, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Try DKiss. The hero will cast it even when it won't spam Infuse, and a very good synergy with the PS and SB the hero will spam.

I already have DKiss. There's more room on a hero bar than a human bar because on the hero bar you can't take Life Attunement (well, you can, if you only keep it on yourself) or Glyph of Swiftness - they neve use it properly.

Malician · Sep 13, 2009, 03:36 AM // 03:36

ER E/MO is terrible; don't use it.

If you've ever dealt with an ER ele (like I have the misfortune of doing), you keenly know the drill. The very instant you become involved in a fracas of any kind, your misshapen healer will be stripped interrupted, and plowed in the arse. He won't remove hexes and he can't possibly clean up your frontline. When two persons of your group are attacked at once he will simply break down and your party will explode.

What with all the vigorous spirits and mending and life attunes and such mess, he will have absolutely no skill slots left whatseoever. Heal party? He's never heard of it. Word of healing? He can't bring it! Aegis? He doesn't even know what that is. His last actions before death will be pitiful Infuses (for all of twenty hit points) before he finally splatters on the ground. After all, he has nothing else to use. Please, for the love of Gaile, don't be this dumb brute!

As an ER, I never ever get in parties. In fact, it's utterly impossible to convince a group of people who want a healer that you can do a good job; you will be instantly kicked before they even read what you say. Don't even try this class!

//jeydra I'm trying to stop this from getting nerfed I love it so much =//////

Zodiac Meteor · Sep 15, 2009, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

ER E/MO is terrible; don't use it.

I agree, when I run it I can't beat most NM missions. As soon as I'm hexed the team is screwed. Enchants are removed to easily which makes this a okay build. Monks can do 10x better.

As you can see I obviously edited: this, this, that and this. To make it look good but you would be amazed at photoshop.

This build is decent and if the team desperately need a heal an Ele can switch to this. No need for buff/nerf or change to ER healers what-so-ever. So don't ever touch ether renewal as it never needs to be changed ever because it's balanced just right.

Carinae · Sep 20, 2009, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Heal Party and Aegis really don't fit on ER. Both have two second cast times and you want to be casting frequently, Aegis is on a long recharge and your bar is really cramped.

I agree about HP because it's a weak heal, cannot be boosted and really doesn't fit in line with what a ER-Protter does anyway.

I disagree very much about Aegis. It's been glued on my ER since I built the bar. It's not coming off either. The way to get around the Aegis recharge is to simply bring whatever Prot hench is available, or to have another human player bring a second ER.

EVERY Prot henchman has Aegis (except EotN Lina) and the H/H chain it nicely. If the battle isn't (at the very least) decided in 24s then something is wrong on the offense side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Your essentials are GoS, ER, Aura, Infuse and Prot Spirit. Spirit Bond is bloody useful to have and Life Attunement boosts your heals and the healing from ER and Aura (I think). If you're maintaining 8 enchantments, you can't really afford a 2 second casting spell and you'll need something spammy to hit between Infuses.

Wait, are you talking about a human run ER-Prot? If so, then yes, GoS and Life Attunement rock and are probably core skills.

I would NEVER, EVER run GoS or Life Attunement on an ER-Prot bar meant for a hero. That seems like asking for trouble. Run a bar that a hero CANNOT screw up. Your core skills are:

Prot Spirit
Spirit Bond
Aegis

Then add two quick, strong heals with as few conditions as possible. My favorites are Dwayna's Kiss and Infuse Health.

That leaves one slot for something else. Don't get fancy, heroes are idiots. Hex removal or cond removal, are the biggies here. For hex removal, I recommend Cure/Convert Hexes. For condition removal, start with Mend Cond. You have a lot of viable options in both areas though.

A hero simply CANNOT screw this bar up, except by not casting at all. Anything he casts helps. We don't have to trust him choosing the right spell, because they're ALL good choices.

There are two things we CAN trust him with: enchantment stacking and hex/cond removal usage. That's about it.

You followed my advice on taking the Prot henchman didn't you? Good. EVERY prot henchman has Aegis, in addition to ALL having either PS or SB. H/H know what enchants are up, and won't waste their time recasting one that is already active. So you have a high probability of getting PS and SB stacked (awesome), and zero probability of a recast. You also get Aegis chaining (awesome) for the same reason with zero probability of a recast.

The two big heals are there purely to fill a slot and keep him from doing anything stupid. I don't WANT him to have options, because he will make the wrong choice 100% of the time. Hero bar are the opposite of player bars, where you want options. You want to confine the bar so he can't screw it up no matter what.

With two big heals, he has four spells to use on you when you need help, so it comes down to 50% prot and 50% heal. If you don't do this, for example, if you take hex AND cond removal, then your free heal is down to 33% usage. All he really knows is to cast SOMETHING. He won't recast an existing prot, but he could still cast another prot, including hex/cond removal, when you need a heal.

Essentially, you're weighting your bar.

Your only real choice is for the last slot: hex removal or cond removal? You've got options here, but think about those options in light of the previous discussion. In a heated battle, you are likely hexed/conded or both, and this basically enables a fifth spell for him to use. We don't really want him to decide to do a removal when we need a heal, but..... we have enough options to make sure that even in that case, we get a heal along with the removal. (ie: Mend Condition and Cure Hex)

There are other options you can choose for their strengths: Draw/Dismiss Conditions, Convert Hexes, etc. And these aren't necessarily wrong. I use Convert in hex heavy areas and usually get away with it, but they open the door for a miscast, whereas Mend/Cure do not.

If you need even stronger removal, work them into another characters bar.

Prot Spirit
Spirit Bond
Dwayna's Kiss
Infuse Health
Mend/Cure or riskier options
Aegis
Ether Renewal
Aura

Prot Hench

Win!